A Mashgiach, Rav Hamachshir, kosher certifier that relies on checking the water for infestation is fooling himself and the kosher consumer as well.Checking the water just "does not" work.
http://star-k.org/cons-vegchecking.php?checking=floretDon't eat anything in that place! Don't trust them for kashrus!
The water does also distort the vission somewhat, it should be emptied onto a coffee filter paper, then checked.
Checking the water just "does not" work.
http://www.crcweb.org/videos.php what not to do!!
A few comments re: the video of checking Romaine. Some insects will be on the foam bubbles that he's blowing, and you can't see them.
58 comments:
I dont understand, whats the point of checking water? we are not drinking the water, we are eating the lettuce?
If checking 5 pieces is enough to establish a chazaka why bother with the water bowl at all?
The whole thing seems confusing.
Can you please write a clear article explaining exactly how to check Romain lettuce.thank you
does anyone know if anyone other then fishbein allows checking the water?
That so called "individual" has more yiras shawmaim in his little pinky than you have in your whole body !
The Method ilustrated in the video is one NOT to use. One should not be an oiber chochum and check his own. The "Mishnah Berurah brings the Chasam Sofer that ONLY A TRAINED EXPERT may check for insects, otherwise use horseradish".
The video makes a joke out of a very serious matter, how many people will be nichshil? r"l.
HE MAY HAVE MORE YIRAS SHAMAYIM....BUT THE METHOS IS A "CHIDDUSH"
That so called "individual" has more yiras shawmaim in his little pinky than you have in your whole body !
**************
Reb Yudel was not - chas v'sholem - attacking him personally. He may very well be a true Yorei Shamaim and ehrliche person.
Reb Yudel was suggesting that the method he uses may not be sufficient, especially for untrained people like myself.
Yudel does get off on destroying people
queens vaad also uses insufficient water checking method
To Yudel Shain
Why do you mention Positive for training? Why dont you just say he could use some hands on training in proper bedikas for insects by a kashrus organiztion. It is not fair to the other kosher lettuce companies that you push Positive. You are always saying positive positive positive. Maybe you should sometimes mention the other companies when possible.
It just happens to be that positive is the only system to properly check for infestation.
Why should someone try to patchkeh with other places that aren't up to par.
That's right the other ones are satisfied that they minimize, while positive's atitude is eliminate.
The Flatbush Vaad has a weird checking method for broccoli that the other hashgochos don't implement as in they are more machmir.
To Yudel Shain. Your comment is confusing. What do you mean by stating "the other ones are satisfied that they minimize", I dont understand what you are saying? Also can you please explain, also what do you mean by positive attitude to eliminate?
To commentor Sun Apr 03, 06:17:00 PM 2011
What is the method?
Your comment is not clear, who is the one that is more machmir, the Flatbush Vaad or the other hashgochos?
The difference between QC & QA, Quality Control tries to minimize the problem, while Quality Assurance, prevents the problem in the first place.
The run of the mill prechecked & prewashed vegetables are satisfied if they minimize the incident of infestation. Some will do it by chazakahs, it's not "nireh", it's not muchzak, etc.
Positive is the only one (that's right) that "good enough" is not "good enough".
This video is a great "blowing exercise" (blozt fun TZICH), as
it is promoted (correctly) by the actor himself.
Please watch the Kashering video for more errors.
i don't get why positive is any better then any of the other companies like bodek or dole or fresh express they all wash the lettuce! what the big deal if positive is greenhouse grown if they still have to wash it like everybody else???
yudel , how do you know if the others are up to par or not? have you ever been to the bodek facility? they are just as up to par as positive i'm sure. have you ever been to the dole facility?i'm sure that a company like dole can shtel tsu a washing system just as good as a few yeshivisher clowns at positive.
To gemoro kup said...Mon Apr 04, 12:28:00 AM 2011
There are THREE MAJOR ISSUES with romaine lettuce that is A) not grown in a PROPERLY CONSTRUCTED GREENHOUSE, B) not grown with the proper growing techniques, C) not continuously monitored throughout the growing cycle (meaning planting through harvesting).
The THREE MAJOR ISSUES with NON GREENHOUSE GROWN romaine lettuce are as follows,
1) APHIDS
2) LEAF MINERS
3) MUCHZIK BITOYLOIM
1) APHIDS, are a type of insect that attaches itself to the leaf of the lettuce in a way that they can not be washed off with a washing system. They attach themselves to the leaf by A) a very sticky gooey substance that water can not release, and B) they have a needle that they insert into the leaf that fastens them to the leaf that water can not release. Unless you have a ZERO tolerance protocol for aphids in a GREENHOUSE you wont have insect free lettuce.
2) LEAF MINERS, are a type of insect that is hatched and developed and lives below the surface of a lettuce leaf, and can not be washed off because they are inside the leaf. The LEAF MINER Fly pricks a hole in the surface of the leaf making a pocket below the surface and then deposits its eggs into the pocket below the surface of the leaf. Unless you have a ZERO tolerance protocol for LEAF MINER FLIES in a GREENHOUSE you wont have insect free lettuce.
3) MUCHZIK BITOYLOIM, FACT IS romaine lettuce is a vegetable that is MUCHZIK BITOYLOIM. FACT IS The Halocho is that anything that is naturally MUCHZIK BITOYLOIM under natural growing circumstances like romaine lettuce, spinach, herbs, and strawberries all REQUIRES and are MECHUYIV a BEDIKAH on EVERY SINGLE leaf and strawberry, EVERY SINGLE TIME, even if you did a spot check and found some that were clean. Regardless the CHIYUV BEDIKAH still remains on each leaf and strawberry, because it is MUCHZIK BITOYLOIM. Therefore UNLESS you remove the natural status of MUCHZIK BITOYLOIM by growing it in a special way, in an altered atmosphere, like a properly constructed greenhouse, you would still HAVE TO CHECK EVERY SINGLE LEAF and strawberry, regardless to the type of washing system you use.
A GREENOUSE is not a magical solution.
GREENHOUSE GROWN does not automatically mean that a head of lettuce is clean or kosher.
GREENHOUSE GROWN can sometimes be more infested than non GREENHOUSE GROWN. The reason why lettuce grown in a non properly constructed GREENHOUSE, and if the growing process is not continuously monitored properly, then the GREENHOUSE GROWN can sometimes be more infested than lettuce grown outside of a GREENHOUSE, is because A) the insects that are inside the greenhouse reproduce and don’t leave the greenhouse, because they are in a closed environment with food, and B) the insects are not exposed to all of their natural predators that they have in the open field.
TO SUM EVERYTHING UP
Therefore washed lettuce or anything else that was MUCHZIK BITOYLOIM prior to the wash still needs a BEDIKAH on every single leaf, and just a spot check after washing is not sufficient.
ALL WASH SYSTEMS ARE NOT EQUAL
Besides the THREE MAJOR ISSUES discussed above, DOLE and FRESH EXPRESS’S number one priority is SPEED SPEED SPEED not clean and not insect free. DOLE and FRESH EXPRESS’S wash system is designed to do smooth mass SPEEDING production of millions and millions of pounds at a time, and they eliminate any feature or anything that can slow down the production or that can cause any other kind of speed slow down. Most wash system features that are used to enhance kashrus are features that slow down the wash process speed, and are not used by DOLE and FRESH EXPRESS. Proper filters that are necessary to insure a kosher product are not used at DOLE and FRESH EXPRESS because they are a major speed slow down due to the extra filter circulation and pressure required.
I'd love to see anyone of them find mites in the water, perhaps if take a large shot of whisky & you start seeing double, you'll imagine that you spot them.
The industry & their mashgichim are worried if the consumers wake up 7 realize that the other systems were the way to go, because it can't be done any better.
Now that there is postive with zero tollerance-OI-VEI
thank you for you educated reply,but if the greenhouse system is not giving out bug free lettuce then how did it become "ois" muchzak betolaim?
and if so we are back to the original question why is positive any better then the others.
UPDATE: Eden, B'Tam, Betram will not allow yudel shain to visit their plants to see first hand.
Postive does, they have nothing to hide.
Still waiting an answer from the others.
have you been to positive greenhouses in mexico?
r' yudel,i wouldn't either let you in after what you have been posting about them without ever being there and knowing exactly whats going on there
My info on Eden was & is correct. My info on Positive was & is correct, so what's your issue.
My sources remain confidential.
you still didnt answer if you were at the positive greenhouses
r' yudel,why should eden/btam let you in? you are not a rov,rav hamachshir or a kashrus agency. why should they let in stam a guy??
all you do is write and post lies and loshon horah/rechilus and motzey shem rah on reputable people and rabonim and companies.
Reb Yudel Shain
PLEASE TELL ME, WERE YOU EVER BY ANY OF THE STRAWBERRY AND SPINACH GREENHOUSES
Yudel went to see the greenohouses of Positive spinach, strawberries, etc & they had none.
Yudel wanted to see the positive greenhoses of brocolli and cauliflower and they had none.
He asked why, they said because they can't be checked postivly.
The other ones figured out how to do it?
Now I hear that the other ones don't have greenhoses for Strawberries & spinach yet the CLAIM it's clean. i thought greenhouses are the secret, it's all hot-air, bubbah maisos.
you and your so called confidential sources have written outright lies so they are not farleslach . thats why your nemonus about positive is also shvach
To gemoro kup said...Mon Apr 04, 01:29:00 PM 2011
You might have to learn some more gemoro, it seems you dont understand the term MUCHZIK BITOYLOIM.
The answer is, it is "ois" muchzak betolaim due to their protocols techniques and guidelines. The growing of romaine lettuce in a properly monitored and properly controlled environment, protects the romaine lettuce from the exposure of the infestation that is in a natural uncontrolled environment, and therefore their romaine lettuce don’t fall under the term of MUCHZIK BITOYLOIM. Dole and Fresh Express are grown in an uncontrolled natural environment, exposed to the high natural infestation, putting it into the category of MUCHZIK BITOYLOIM requiring a full BEDIKAH on every single leaf of Dole and Fresh Express.
To commentor Anonymous said... Mon Apr 04, 07:33:00 PM 2011
Your comment is confusing can you please clarify what you mean and what you are trying to say
when you say
"Now I hear that the other ones don't have greenhoses for Strawberries & spinach yet the CLAIM it's clean. i thought greenhouses are the secret, it's all hot-air, bubbah maisos."
yudel if positive is so great and you concider yourself as the worlds kashrus consumer advocate , how do you explain that positive cabbage is not greenhouse grown? the oilam goilem thinks positive=greenhouse and thats really achizas einayim!!
ITS VERY VERY INTERESTING
THERE IS A MULTI MULTI MILLION DOLLAR OPERTUNITY, AND NOBODY IS TAKING IT.
THERE IS A HUGE HUGE DEMAND FOR
KOSHER FRESH STRAWBERRIES,
KOSHER FRESH SPINACH,
KOSHER FRESH BROCOLLI,AND
KOSHER FRESH CAULIFLOWER
WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO SHIP WHOLE ROMAIN HEADS OF LETTUCE AND ALL KINDS OF OTHER FRESH PRODUCE FROM ACROSS THE WORLD
AND WE HAVE MANY COMPANIES SELLING
KOSHER FROZEN STRAWBERRIES,
KOSHER FROZEN SPINACH,
KOSHER FROZEN BROCOLLI,AND
KOSHER FROZEN CAULIFLOWER
SO THE QUESTION IS
IF THERE IS SUCH A HUGE DEMAND FOR FRESH STRAWBERRIES, SPINACH, BROCOLLI,AND CAULIFLOWER, AND THERE IS THE ABILITY TO SEND ANY TYPE OF PRODUCE FROM ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD,
THEN, IF THIS IS THE CASE THEN WHY ISNT ANYONE USING THE SAME SOURCES BEING USED FOR THE KOSHER FROZEN STRAWBERRIES, SPINACH, BROCOLLI,AND CAULIFLOWER, AND USE THOSE SAME SOURCES TO SELL FRESH STRAWBERRIES, SPINACH, BROCOLLI, AND CAULIFLOWER
WHATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FROZEN AND FRESH
Rabboisai
There is no such thing available today as kosher greenhouse grown strawberries and kosher greenhouse spinach.
All frozen strawberries and spinach being sold by the heimesha companies today, are all grown in the open field without greenhouses.
Flatbush Vaad in other words is not as machmir when it comes to broccoli. He says he has a proven system. I believe he is being sincere and really believes it but there's good reason why the OU is more thorough. Flatbush Vaad used to be very good with lettuce until they fell for Star K's latest shpiel and starting using Dole after holding back for many years.
Thank you for the shtarker s'voros,
so my farshtandt is that since by special growing techniques it is possible to make it ois muchzek betoloyim . oib azoy why does positive need to wash their products??? eloh mai, positive products is also buggy before washing. kumt ois that it can be washed and made bug free,oib azoy whole heads can also be washed and made bug free.
Nah, Positive starts with a no insect product. The washing is not done to remove insects. If there are insects, it requires a bedikah not washing as washing is NOT bedikah.
Postive washes it for some other reason, i don't know & don't realy care for what.
All the other ones are washing instead of a bedikah.
Their rational is as follows: open the book of heteirim on page $$$$
Safek, sfek sfaikah, maaseh, miut, ainoi muchzuk, Bodek add shehudoi magaas-vi hashar mivatloi biliboi, Mashgichims parnusah, hefsed mirubah for the companies, etc
How many more heteirim do you need?
Positive's standard is "4 times " Hapesach ainoi nechal, elluh, elluh, elluh, elluh" look in mishnaiyos.
Which Postiv competitors are posting all the comments here?
R' Yudel, I have no negios here except that I like to have fresh product. Maybe you can impress upon Postiv to improve on their product and packaging or whatever it is that causes the lettuce to get wilted and soggy much before the supposed sell-by date printed on the bag. They are the produce version of cholov Yisroel milk spoiling quickly.
r' yudel i am very shocked and supprised at your answer.yesh lachkor, you relly think that if positive would have a 100% bug free product before washing that they would not market it that way?? either 1- you are naive 2- you are not being given all the true facts about positive 3- you also read the $$$$ page!
please be poishet this kler
The way I unrstand from r yudel is that by positive before the washing, there is NO chiyuv Bedika.
The washing is not used in order to create sfaikas, miut, maaseh, etc.
After finding out by the other ones, it's just the oposite, the washing makes the sufak, sfek sfaikas, miut, maaseh, What else can I do etc.
The mashgichim need their jobs, as long as they follow the guidelines & the company has product to sell, they feel vindicated.
I would like to see a disclusre from the certifiers as what are their exact standards. How many heads are checked, out of how many heads. How many insects & what type of insects that would cause a rejection. How is the checking done, with specifcs.
How could they do strawberries when the thrips do hide under the seeds? They can't, yet they sell it "bichezkas....."
Like the fellow complains "my son in law can't drink & he can't gamble" So what's the problem?
But he does!
Is it responsible to the Tzibur to mislead them like this?
We are being taken to the cleaners, and a chinese one, yet.
yeah, the chinese laundry shmendriks only dip your shirt in bleach and sholom al yisroel. the shmutz is still there, just harder to see
i would like to see a dicloser from positive and their certfiers that their products are coming in 100% bug freeb efore washing.please don't base your understanding on r' yudels information about positive since he doesn't like to get confused with the FACTS.(see above posts)
your 100% right the hechsherim should be taken of all the chinese laundries asap
Dear Masgichim, I'm talking from mine hart now.
You know the truth (I hope) vos einkereh bedikas mit zeireh heterim iz vert.
By eink in shtib baim Seder, est nisht zeireh sichoirah, get nisht far deh mispucha und de sheifelech tzu essen der schoirah.
Oib etz kent bodek zein aleinst, (ich meineh sfaikus) nu nu. Oib nisht ven etz nemt positvis, vaist nisht de mishpucha dem bintel. ess iz nisht gezint as de mishpucha zuhl vissen.
chag kusher.
last i checked hearts are for pumping blood not for talking. please check in with you local mechanic for a realignment
yasher koiach far de guteh eitzeh.efshar kenst du alediken a platz vee mir kenen upnemen b'shtika dee shalaten far dee mishpuche
tzu der vos zugt as er redt fun dee hartz;
hayotzeh min helev nichnas lalev, uber az du hust a hartz fun shtein ken fun dem gurnisht arois kumen.ver meinst du az du binst?? nisht mer vee a narisher shmendrik vos meint az du veist ales, ye ye dos iz dee siman fun a nar. ver binst du tsu zugem dee mashgichim eitzes zei zenen moiser nefesh far deer un anderer yidden vos villen esen kosher.
un du r' yudel veil du zitst underheim un du hust nisht vos tsu tun mit dein leben dos gibt dir a heter tsu shreiben kol dovor osur??? nebach du binst baleidikt as men hut dir gezugt az men luzt dir nisht bazuchen bei zei nebach,nebach.b"h es iz du apur vos huben a bissel seichel un zugen dir tsu gein avu der feffer vakst, durten vest du kenen zein der groiser mumche in kashrus.zug nur hust du amol getracht farvos fun dee aleh vaadei hakashrus bet men dir keinmul az du zulst gein arbeiten far zei? veil chutz fun dem az du binst a meshugener du kenst nisht kashrus durch un durch.
zol der eibishter dir chonen daas zein az du zulst huben dee seichel teshuva tsu tun vee shneler.amen
avu der feffer vakst
And who do you think YOU are to smear R' Yudel like that? Let me guess, you're from one of the corrupt hashgochos that he exposed, as one of the only people with a backbone to do so.
Have you ever seen the Yerushalmi kids by hafganos disabling the mounted police from Mishmar Hagvul? They put feffer in the nose of the ferd. You could use a little dose of that.
rabboisai der yuhr iz du tsu bakumen a neiah surt fun morror vos iz nisht du kein shum sheila fun tolayim. der morror heist yudel shain , er iz azoi farbittert az es iz du genug far ganz klal yisroel
how come everytime someone posts something that is not exactly towing the line of r' yudel, right away that commentor gets blamed of working for the "farbrechers" ???
that just comes to show that you are just terrorist who likes to push and force your agenda on everyone.
to dr. pepper
have you ever seen the yerushalmi kids do that?? its nothing more then a myth.maybe it happened 1 time and not in the nose but somewhere else, at the other end. actually you can ask r' yudel thats probably why he's as wacked as he is.
To Anonymous said...Thu Apr 07, 09:39:00 PM 2011
NOT STAM A TERRORIST, BUT A TERRORIST WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF CHASIDIM!!!!!
To Anonymous said...Thu Apr 07, 09:39:00 PM 2011
when you write
"that commentor gets blamed of working for the "farbrechers" ???"
They are not being blamed, people are just being informed.
what is a "farbrechers"?
it should be emptied onto a coffee filter paper, then checked
"Wake up & smell the coffee" azoy vee me zogt
The major supermarket chain brands of sunflower seeds under OU seem to be lesser quality than "brand names". About 5% of the seeds per bottle in my experience are either infested or rotten. I don't know if the "dry roasting" process eliminates berya. There is dry roasted and regular roasted varieties sold.
Post a Comment